The following is a compillation of postings taken from USENET.REC.BACKCOUNTRY during July/94 on the subjext of Electronic maps and mapping software ============================================================================ Tue Jul 5 13:56:44 1994 Message : #14671689 From: David Woodsworth [2476] Group : Local.Rec.Hiking Length : 112 words Subject : Vista Pro I've seen a program for the PC called Vista Pro. An incredible program, it works off of USGS DEM files (actual elevation information) and is capable of rendering a landscape onto your screen with 10 meter resolution. You can view a landscape from any angle, and it looks quite realistic! It's impressive. It would be in ideal tool to let hikers preview their routes in 3d, and see just what their getting into. The problem is that, according to the documentation, the USGS has digitized half the US (and Mars!) I don't know where to get any DEM files for the Coast Mountains. Anyone run have any ideas? David ========================================================================== Tue Jul 5 22:26:24 1994 Message : #14683932 From: Robert Cocking [7667] Group : Local.Rec.Hiking Length : 317 words Subject : Re: Vista Pro Reply to: #14671689 David Woodsworth writes: > I've seen a program for the PC called Vista Pro. ... USGS 3 arc-second DEM files are available via FTP from resdgs1.er.usgs.gov (130.11.52.55) in the /dems directory. USGS 1:250,000 scale DEM files are available via FTP from edcftp.cr.usgs.gov in the /data/DEM/250 (and in /data/30ASDCWDEM) directory. You should also check out spectrum.xerox.com (192.70.225.78) under /pub/map. One of the above sites contains three or four Canadian areas including Vancouver (east half/west half). Also try: walrus.wr.usgs.gov (130.118.7.254) in /pub/data/dem and stardent.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.21.44) in /pub for Mars data. I'd be amazed if there is detailed data for the coast range or anywhere else in Canada. BTW: I believe there is some sort of translator needed in VP to convert to a VP readable format. It may be in the GIS FAQ or can easily be answered by a question to usenet.comp.sys.gis. I have imported the east half of Vancouver into Arc/info (a popular GIS) and the data looked good enough, although probably too coarse to be plotting trails on. Good luck with it, Babboo ============================================================================ Thu Jul 7 21:46:41 1994 Message : #14751619 From: Robert Cocking [7667] Group : Local.Rec.Hiking Length : 198 words Subject : Re: Digital Topo (was Trail reports) Reply to: #14701727 Replies : 1 Patrick MacLachlan writes: > Eventually it would be great to be able to link a trail report database to > a rudimentary cartography package. Ottawa should be coming out with the > 1:50,000s in digital form within the next two years, or so I hear. Many of the digital 1:50,000 files are available, as of February, all of the southern third of BC had been completed. These files can be ordered from the Canadian Centre for Geomatics in Sherbrooke, PQ. Warning: they are not cheap. The price is $500.00 per mapsheet, this price will double sometime in September. Supported formats are DXF, COGIF (used by no one) and SIF (used by almost no one). They might be able to handle Arc/Info format (a popular GIS). A better alternative might be the Province of BC's TRIM files at 1:20,000. The contour data is far better and the cultural data is much more detailed. Unfortunately, they only distribute in SAIF format. If anyone wants contact numbers send me mail at work: rcocking@gsc.emr.ca Babboo =========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 12:50:40 1994 Message : #14771903 From: NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 80 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS > Does anyone know of a source for topographic maps in electronic format? > would be kinda neat to just call up an area and print a custom map! Still neater on a portable display, with maps supplied on PROMS and GPS input capability. Alternatively, map data also available as radio signal, being a service to which you subscribe. Anyone else think so? Anyone out there with venture capital? Nick Kew ========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 12:51:14 1994 Message : #14771982 From: Robbie Felix Address : rfelix@netcom.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 245 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS In article <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: >> Does anyone know of a source for topographic maps in electronic format? >> would be kinda neat to just call up an area and print a custom map! I was at the USGS recently and asked about sites to get maps electronically... They weren't aware of any but said that everything they do is basically "public"... He seemed to be indicating that anyone could buy their maps, scan 'em in somewhere and offer them up publicly for free... Maybe we should start some kind of "club", if you buy a map, send it to someone with the facility to scan it in when you are done, then it will be available to everyone for the cost of joining the club ( which could be a map!)....It would sure be easier to get the stuff on-line than to have to drive 5 miles to the USGS :-) I would happily send my substantial map collection to anyone who could create a site that would make them publicly available... rf ========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 12:51:18 1994 Message : #14771996 From: Mark Stoffan Address : mark.stoffan@inforail.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 111 words Subject : Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: <21c.4709.124.0NCFEB8A@inforail.com> References: <2vf3lr$rm9@hacgate2.hac.com> KK> Does anyone know of a source for topographic maps in electronic form KK> be kinda neat to just call up an area and print a custom map! Delorme Mapping in Freeport, Maine produces a number of CD-ROM maps and atlases. They had a write-up in the local paper last weekend. If you have access to the Web, you can reach demos at www.delorme.com. Mark ********************************************************** Mark Stoffan sysop@inforail.com The Information Railroad Co., Inc. mstoffan@nlbbs.com Cumberland Center, Maine stoffan@delphi.com Serving Maine's Financial and Business Community * RM 1.3 00551 * "Is that seat saved?" "No, but we're praying for it..." ========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 12:51:24 1994 Message : #14772021 From: gjm@iapetus.slac.stanford.edu Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 401 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: In , rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes: >In article <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: >>> Does anyone know of a source for topographic maps in electronic format? >>> would be kinda neat to just call up an area and print a custom map! > >I was at the USGS recently and asked about sites to get maps >electronically... They weren't aware of any but said that everything >they do is basically "public"... He seemed to be indicating that anyone >could buy their maps, scan 'em in somewhere and offer them up publicly >for free... > >Maybe we should start some kind of "club", if you buy a map, send it >to someone with the facility to scan it in when you are done, then it >will be available to everyone for the cost of joining the club ( which >could be a map!)....It would sure be easier to get the stuff on-line >than to have to drive 5 miles to the USGS :-) > >I would happily send my substantial map collection to anyone who could >create a site that would make them publicly available... >rf or... you might wait until next winter/spring, ie, before next backpacking season, and I'll have calif, parts of washington and colorado available on cdrom and/or on the net... I have the maps, they've been scanned, they've been compresses, the map scanning/printing software is working etc, I'm just not ready to open the doors yet.... and not wanting to preannounce anything, I'll shut my mouth here. =greg --------------------------------------------------------------------- +-----+ Greg Mushial gjm@Iapetus.Slac.Stanford.Edu | | SLAC, MS 97 | | 2575 Sand Hill Rd | | Menlo Park, CA 94025 (415) 926.3772 ---------> \ \ \ \ ========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 12:51:26 1994 Message : #14772026 From: John S. Watson - FSC Address : watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 236 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: <2vjusb$4pq@news.arc.nasa.gov> References: In article fcrary@benji.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes: >>...I was at the USGS recently and asked about sites to get maps >>electronically... They weren't aware of any but said that everything >>they do is basically "public"... He seemed to be indicating that anyone >>could buy their maps, scan 'em in somewhere and offer them up publicly >>for free... > >You could; the Survey does not copyright its maps. (Most government >publications aren't, by the way.) But how do you plan to scan it >in? You'd need a very large, color scanner... There is a whole heck of a lot of raw USGS data which is anonymous ftp'ble from edcftp.cr.usgs.gov in "pub" directory under "data", Some software also. Does anyone know if you can construct topo maps of 7.5' detail from these data sets? It looks like the DEM (Digital Elevation Model?) data is accurate enough, about 1 point every hundred yards (heck, with this stuff we could make better than 2D topos). But I don't know if the other data contains all the feature information that is typically on a topo map (trails, rivers, peak names, lakes, etc.). John John S. Watson NASA Ames Research Center MS/243-9, Moffett Field, CA 94035 John S. Watson #include ========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 15:37:17 1994 Message : #14788310 From: Giles Chamberlin Address : gchamberlin@bt-sys.bt.co.uk Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 183 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: Org. : Advanced Media Unit, BT Labs Ordanance Survey (UK map producer & v good ones too!) Have their data in digital format. A (very) few shops will print you a map on demand. I think this is a trail they are running. OS will also sell you a tape of the UK spot heights on a digital grid at 100 m intervals. I'm trying to find an excuse to get a work project going as has been suggested: palm held computer (PDA to the geeks amonst you), gps, digital data, high bandwidth downlink, ... and then I could borrow it for the weekend :) Swapping scanned maps - copyright! I know alt.binaries.pictures looks a little light on copyright validity but it's not really worth anyone chasing it.(yet) A map database with multiple membership ... On a technical side, LCD screen resolution is a little low, battery life a little short (Where are we? Don't know, the maps off!) as yet. But watch this space! -- Giles Chamberlin ========================================================================= Fri Jul 8 17:21:00 1994 Message : #14794470 From: Eugene N. Miya Address : eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 117 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> In article <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: >Anyone else think so? Anyone out there with venture capital? It will happen with cars and road maps first, a bigger market. I have held such a unit in my hand two Hackers Conferences ago. GPS has subtle problems like what happens if you do a 180 degree turn: walking/flying/sailing have differences. This is a question for sci.geo.satellite-nav. --eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene My 2nd favorite use of a flame thrower is the remake of "The Thing." A Ref: Uncommon Sense, Alan Cromer, Oxford Univ. Press, 1993. ======================================================================== Fri Jul 8 19:07:13 1994 Message : #14796963 From: Robert Kovsky Address : kovsky@netcom.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 148 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: In article , wrote: >In , rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix) writes: >>In article <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: >>>> Does anyone know of a source for topographic maps in electronic format? > >or... you might wait until next winter/spring, ie, before next backpacking >season, and I'll have calif, parts of washington and colorado available on >cdrom and/or on the net... I have the maps, they've been scanned, they've >been compresses, the map scanning/printing software is working etc, ... Sounds wonderful -- sign me up! The next step is to write a program that takes the maps in digital form and projects elevations onto the screen so you can see what the landscape will look like from the trail. ========================================================================== Fri Jul 8 19:07:13 1994 Message : #14796964 From: Don Wegeng Address : dlw.xkeys@xerox.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 31 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: <1994Jul8.142114.5726@news.wrc.xerox.com> References: There are quite a few digital maps available by anonymous ftp from: spectrum.xerox.com in the directory /pub/map See the readme file in that directory for more details. /Don ========================================================================= Sat Jul 9 09:05:02 1994 Message : #14806702 From: Eugene Levine Address : elevine@world.std.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Length : 133 words Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: Check out VistaPro from Virtual Reality Software. I think v. 3 is available on its own for about $75 (street price) - earlier version is bundled with a couple other programs on CD Rom for cheap. The point being that all of this software will render 3-D images from DEM software, then color it according to season, vegetation, etc. (as you specify). They already have a number of DEM formatted files available on disk - and you can just go crazy! Peace Gene Levine elevine@world.std.com ========================================================================= Taken from MIND LINK! on Tue Jul 12 19:27:25 1994 Mon Jul 11 08:09:01 1994 Message : #14846177 From: NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: <94192.161204NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> References: <2vf3lr$rm9@hacgate2.hac.com> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) wrote: > In article <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: > It will happen with cars and road maps first, a bigger market. I worked on such a system for cars/roadmaps in the UK about 5/6 years ago. Input was not GPS (rather a Loran-like system) so it is not global, but it has been operational for some time. For backcountry use: - Maps: (1) Extra detail required. Possibly a pure bitmap (eg scanned+geocorrected) format. This is also what I think the majority of posters in this thread have in mind. (2) You would NOT carry the complete map database!!! - Miniaturisation: Lighter weight, lower power consumption. > This is a question for sci.geo.satellite-nav. Possibly, but the focus of the thread is on maps. Jonathan=Free%Desktop%PCMkt=Hou@bangate.compaq.com wrote: > >In article <94188.195602NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: > >>> Does anyone know of a source for topographic maps in electronic format? (more deleted) Just for the record, these words are not mine: I was quoting someone else's previous post. Nick Kew nick@mail.esrin.esa.it =========================================================================== Taken from MIND LINK! on Tue Jul 12 19:26:58 1994 Mon Jul 11 09:09:05 1994 Message : #14847980 From: NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: <94192.170747NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> References: Re-posted FYI from comp.infosystems.gis. > Newsgroup(s): comp.infosystems.gis > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 1994 01:05:37 +0800 > From: Tsui Hoi-yuen > Subject: Re: Realtime Visualization of GPS Data > > The software TRUTH from PCI Inc. can do real time visualization of GPS > on vector and raster data in a portable. If you are interested in it, ============================================================================ Mon Jul 11 11:12:08 1994 Message : #14851589 From: gjm@iapetus.slac.stanford.edu Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: kovsky@netcom.com (Robert Kovsky) writes: >>or... you might wait until next winter/spring ie before next backpacking >>season and I'll have calif parts of washington and colorado available on >>cdrom and/or on the net... > >Sounds wonderful -- sign me up! The next step is to write a >program that takes the maps in digital form and projects elevations onto the >screen so you can see what the landscape will look like from the trail. > if i understand the request/desire: it's already there ie topoworks already understands how to follow contour lines (although it does get hopelessly screwed up trying to follow the lines across the face of el cap etc. but for human negotiable terrain it does just fine) and from which it regenerates a 3-d model of the selected area - the goal was to allow joe user to generate arbitrary scale maps from the 7.5min db and then to be able to treat them as 3-d models where one can view them from whatever angle etc one wants... hey we're talking 145k lines of code and 9 yrs work - its got to be doing something. =greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Greg Mushial gjm@Iapetus.Slac.Stanford.Edu SLAC MS 97 2575 Sand Hill Rd Menlo Park CA 94025 (415) 926.3772 ============================================================================ Mon Jul 11 11:12:18 1994 Message : #14851596 From: Bruce Albert Address : greenman@terra.oscs.montana.edu Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: <2vf3lr$rm9@hacgate2.hac.com> >>I was at the USGS recently and asked about sites to get maps >>electronically... He seemed to be indicating that anyone could buy their >> maps scan 'em in somewhere... >You could; the Survey does not copyright its maps...You'd need a very large >color scanner... ... Not to mention several megs of memory to store it and something like a laptop to display it. Such things already exist for marine charts and are available commerically but just a wee bit to big and heavy for backpacking purposes. The other thing that is already available is the DEM - digital elevation map -- which is basically an alititude sampling every few meters. There are no details -- you need something like Vistapro to turn it into a useable map so we're back to a large untotable system. Dr. Bruce Albert aliba@msu.oscs.montana.edu =========================================================================== Mon Jul 11 17:17:17 1994 Message : #14863513 From: Ken Lee Address : kenton@allegro.esd.sgi.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: Sony is now selling a notebook sized box that contains both a GPS receiver a LCD screen and digital map data. You press a button and it draws a map on the screen with your current location marked. I don't know what format they use for the maps but I assume it's CDROM or similar. Last I heard the only maps available were street maps of certain Japanese cities. If there were sufficient demand (not likely) putting topo maps in these boxes would be interesting. I'm sure the Army is studying thisthough their topo maps are probably not of places most backpackers would care to visit. -- Ken Lee kenton@esd.sgi.com =========================================================================== Mon Jul 11 18:15:07 1994 Message : #14865316 From: Richard Ottolini Address : stgprao@st.unocal.COM Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: Eugene N. Miya wrote: >The problem is that the average American (male or female) won't know how >to read it. Nothing says that future map-databases have to be presented to users in the way they have been in printed form for the past couple centuries. Current printed maps are a highly styled and condensed for "power users". Alternative presentations might include animated walk throughs true prespective 3D rendering views that re-align to the landscape as you move the viewer x-ray vision of the landscape and so on. Since these are possible an the multi-hundred thousand dollar computers of today it is only a matter of time before prices decline to consumer levels. (Hope the battery doesn't go out in the middle of the hike! :-) ========================================================================== Tue Jul 12 08:08:51 1994 Message : #14880783 From: gjm@iapetus.slac.stanford.edu Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: In stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes: >In article >Bruce Albert wrote: >>The other thing that is already available is the DEM - digital elevation map >>-- which is basically an alititude sampling every few meters. There are no >>details -- you need something like Vistapro to turn it into a useable map. my current map db - all of calif cascades of washington and western colo - in compressed form (about 1:40 rel to raw raster image topos [600dpi 24bit]) takes 3.2GB... but why would one want to have a local copy of such? assuming wireless ethernets are 18-30 months away I'm planning to make my collection available via NFS/AFS (or CDROM for those not connected)... =greg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg Mushial gjm@Iapetus.Slac.Stanford.Edu | | SLAC MS 97 | | 2575 Sand Hill Rd | | Menlo Park CA 94025 (415) 926.3772 ---------> \ \ ========================================================================== Tue Jul 12 11:09:05 1994 Message : #14886502 From: Eugene N. Miya Address : eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS (Richard Ottolini) writes: >Nothing says that future map-databases have to be presented to users >in the way they have been in printed form for the past couple centuries. I'm not assuming future GIS systems are going to be topo maps. But we are going to have the same set of problems (limtations is a better word) inherent in all sampling models. I only have to say: Contour lines are 80 feet. to mention one problem. >Current printed maps are a highly styled and condensed for "power users". >Alternative presentations might include animated walk throughs >true prespective 3D rendering >views that re-align to the landscape as you move the viewer >x-ray vision of the landscape and so on. >Since these are possible an the multi-hundred thousand dollar computers >of today it is only a matter of time before prices decline to >consumer levels. I just exchanged some email with one of my old cartography profs. This is a race in the final resolution of chips and disks to the larger scale resolution of maps. Both are O(n^2) problems and we can't keep saying "It's a matter of time." The stuff comes at a cost (it's actually just slightly larger than O(n^2). We are going to present an increasing number of options to users (many GIS layers number 20 or more layers of different data). People have increasing amounts of clutter but unlike other users we have to base life-critical decisions on some of this. Maps and magazine articles like radios also provide false senses of security. --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov Resident Cynic Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers {uunet ========================================================================== Tue Jul 12 12:09:47 1994 Message : #14888626 From: Eugene N. Miya Address : eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Msg-ID: References: <94192.161204NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> In article <94192.161204NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET> writes: >- Maps: (1) Extra detail required. Possibly a pure bitmap > (eg scanned+geocorrected) format. This is also what I think > the majority of posters in this thread have in mind. Bitmaps (rasters) have lots of problems re: version control invasive pixel use (they overlap and take up space) etc. > (2) You would NOT carry the complete map database!!! >- Miniaturisation: Lighter weight lower power consumption. A lot of people think they would. I think it's too early to say. >> This is a question for sci.geo.satellite-nav. >Possibly, but the focus of the thread is on maps. Also comp.infosystems.gis --eugene miya NASA Ames Research Center eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov =========================================================================== Mon Jul 11 09:09:05 1994 Message : #14847980 From: NKEW@ESRIN.BITNET Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Electronic MAPS Re-posted FYI from comp.infosystems.gis. > Newsgroup(s): comp.infosystems.gis > Date: Sat 9 Jul 1994 01:05:37 +0800 > From: Tsui Hoi-yuen > Subject: Re: Realtime Visualization of GPS Data > > The software TRUTH from PCI Inc. can do real time visualization of GPS > on vector and raster data in a portable. If you are interested in it =========================================================================== Wed Jul 13 16:09:57 1994 Message : #14931565 From: Jonathan=Free%Desktop%PCMkt=Hou@bangate.compaq.com Group : Usenet.rec.backcountry Subject : Re: Re: Electronic MAPS or SGI Alias =========================================================================== Thu Jul 14 23:28:22 1994 Message : #14975560 From: Erik Lees [10999] Group : Local.Rec.Hiking Subject : Re: Vista Pro Reply to: #14671689 This sounds interesting. Our Community Forester in West Van Bill McCuaig at phone 922 1211 may be able to help with file info for trim maps etc. We are just starting a West Van Parks corporate membership in ML and will be avail there soon. We will join this local group. Cheers. Erik Lees.